Batteries - which are good, which are not

[Mitch]

I am in the early stages of researching in an attempt to build out the 12-volt system on Charlie, my 1996 F250 service bed. The truck was an XL model work truck with 351, manual transmission, and basic crank windows. Battery's seem to be an issue here in Reno, with nothing I have previously purchased lasting thru winter. Temp swings here can go from around 100 F in the summer to oF in the winter. These extremes won't last long, but the cold seems to do in any battery that is dormant thru winter. As a such, I have been swapping out AutoZone batteries for warranty every spring. I don't want to gamble on that strategy for this truck.

My hope is to design a complete system in one shot and build/buy a harness, that does not appear a rats nest of Hodge pod afterthoughts. The heart of the system is obviously the battery. It seems Odyssey is my best choice reading this thread, but I am questioning if I should go with two 6V house batteries and a 12V battery for the vehicle, or just three 12V units?

My hope is to have a system that can charge from the alternator, a shoreline, future solar, or my Honda generator. There seems to be a lot of information on this subject, but I have yet to find the definitive guide for building these types of systems. At this point, I think I have researched myself into confusion and loss of trust in the content I have found.

Can someone point me in the right direction with a link? I would like to do this work myself so that if I have issues, I can find them. Lastly, thoughts on insulating the battery or confining in a box? I have not yet decided where to locate the house batteries but would like to have access to hook up my portable welder which seems to come in handy from time to time.

The truck has a service bed, so I have space to play and would like to have a single terminal for all related fuses, relays, or isolators. Remote connections for the welder and a switch to go to 24V would be slick.

The best place to purchase Odessy batteries these days?

There's no simple ONE PIECE FITS ALL solution to your problem. But what you're talking about has already been done and refined in the boating world, much of what we use as car campers is borrowed easily from that realm.

Choose your battery bank wisely:

It doesn't matter what it is as long as it suits your needs and you can afford it, including afford to REPLACE IT when something goes wrong. IN SERIES: Two 6 Volt batteries are going to weight a lot, but give you about 240 Amp Hours. IN PARALLEL: Two AGM Group 31's weight about 75 pounds each, and will give you 200 amp hours. ITEM OF NOTE: 6 volt batteries aren't sealed batteries, and usually require maintenance (adding distilled water). There's also the route of a very large single battery such as a 4D or 8D, these can be sealed AGM batteries. Lithium is starting to come into their own as well, but a 100 Amp Hour lithium is going to cost you about $900-$1000. If your lithium must also be capable of starting your vehicle, expect that price to double.​

Charging: So many options

Simple/DUMB: An automatic charge relay (ACR) such as the Blue Sea 7622. The 7622 is a voltage-aware solenoid that will pair the batteries when the ambient voltage is sensed above 13.2 volts, and disconnect the batteries when voltage drops below around 12.9 or less volts. I say DUMB because this method is completely unaware of the State of Charge (SoC) of either battery, and is only concerned with ambient voltage to decide when to connect and disconnect. DUMB systems include: National Luna Dual Battery setups, basic solenoids, ACR solenoids, etc.
Intelligent: The best onboard systems are DC to DC chargers. These systems use the alternator voltage to charge the auxiliary battery bank. They are aware of the SoC of the battery bank, and will charge with a proper multi-stage charging profile accordingly: BULK charging for refilling voltage quickly, ABSORPTION for recharging capacity, and FLOAT charging for keeping the battery topped off after it has been fully recharged. Many of the DC to DC options allow for multiple inputs of DC voltage to charge with: Alternator, Solar, and Wind. Redarc and CTEK are two of the most commonly used.​

Shore charging:

The boating industry is going to lend the best options here as well, once again I would look at Blue Sea products. There are many sizes to choose from, based upon the size of your battery bank. This can be setup as having a shore charging plug on the side of your vehicle to plug an extension cord into, or as simple as just leaving the attached cord intact, and plugging it into an extension cord and running that to a plug or generator.​

Solar:

Portable: Any one of the plethora of available solar setups: Overland Solar, LenSun Solar foldable or semi-flexible, Renogy (Solar Suitcase), Flex-o-Power, etc. These can be relatively inexpensive, all the way up to OMG pricing. Sometimes without reason for such inflated pricing such as charging more just because it's "Overland", other times it can make sense. For example, Flex-o-Power's panels are quite expensive, but their solar cells are divided more than most others, which means if a cell becomes shaded, voltage suffers less from the shading. Cover one corner of a solar cell and a cheaper cell may lose as much as HALF its voltage, whereas a cell that's divided into 32 sections might only lose 1/32 of the usable voltage.
Permanent: The other way to go is with a permanent installation. A little harder to do correctly, now you must consider installations that will water-proof your pass-thru, mounting panels in such a way that doesn't cause leaks, etc. The advantage is you're always setup, and will charge everywhere you park without shade. You will have to climb up there and clean the panels from time to time: dust plus moisture (morning dew) equals MUD, and will reduce efficiency. The best panels in this scenario are Renogy Eclipse, LenSun Solar Semi-flexible panels which are very low profile, etc.​

Your portable welder:

Talk to the manufacturer, but I'm pretty sure none of these systems are designed to work off of battery banks alone. They are designed for engine running/generator setups. The toll it will put on the batteries will overpower the battery banks ability to recover from sharp draws. Also 6 volt batteries are designed as "long distance runners", meaning small amounts of amps over very long periods of time. Starting batteries are "sprinters", meaning very large current draws for very short periods of time. Most of your marine/house batteries are long distance runners in nature. Every portable welder setup I've seen has either a very large upgraded alternator or an AC Generator (5000 watt range) mounted and powered by the engine of the vehicle.​

A common misconception exists for things like winches, inverters, large current draw items, that you have to have a dual battery installation. It's not exactly true. These items are just not meant to run without the engine running. Which is why all vehicles that have inverters in them, even small ones (200-400 watt), come from the factory without the ability to operate them without the engine running. These items should only be hooked to the starting battery so as to isolate them from the auxiliary setup, since they'll only be in use while the engine is running anyway.

 

[Jeff Knoll]

Thanks, @Mitch for sharing your extensive knowledge. Looks like I will stick with all 12-volt batteries as I did not consider the sealed aspect vs maintenance.

The portable welder is a "ReadyWelder" http://readywelder.com/ I have had this thing for many years and it works surprisingly well. While I have known Pat formerly of Premiere Power Welder, I could never bring myself to invest in that nice of a unit for emergency repair. It has proven that most of the time I am not welding my own stuff. You have given me great advice thanks again for sharing.

 

[Dave]

There's no simple ONE PIECE FITS ALL solution to your problem. But what you're talking about has already been done and refined in the boating world, much of what we use as car campers is borrowed easily from that realm.

Choose your battery bank wisely:

It doesn't matter what it is as long as it suits your needs and you can afford it, including afford to REPLACE IT when something goes wrong. IN SERIES: Two 6 Volt batteries are going to weight a lot, but give you about 240 Amp Hours. IN PARALLEL: Two AGM Group 31's weight about 75 pounds each, and will give you 200 amp hours. ITEM OF NOTE: 6 volt batteries aren't sealed batteries, and usually require maintenance (adding distilled water). There's also the route of a very large single battery such as a 4D or 8D, these can be sealed AGM batteries. Lithium is starting to come into their own as well, but a 100 Amp Hour lithium is going to cost you about $900-$1000. If your lithium must also be capable of starting your vehicle, expect that price to double.​

Charging: So many options

Simple/DUMB: An automatic charge relay (ACR) such as the Blue Sea 7622. The 7622 is a voltage-aware solenoid that will pair the batteries when the ambient voltage is sensed above 13.2 volts, and disconnect the batteries when voltage drops below around 12.9 or less volts. I say DUMB because this method is completely unaware of the State of Charge (SoC) of either battery, and is only concerned with ambient voltage to decide when to connect and disconnect. DUMB systems include: National Luna Dual Battery setups, basic solenoids, ACR solenoids, etc.
Intelligent: The best onboard systems are DC to DC chargers. These systems use the alternator voltage to charge the auxiliary battery bank. They are aware of the SoC of the battery bank, and will charge with a proper multi-stage charging profile accordingly: BULK charging for refilling voltage quickly, ABSORPTION for recharging capacity, and FLOAT charging for keeping the battery topped off after it has been fully recharged. Many of the DC to DC options allow for multiple inputs of DC voltage to charge with: Alternator, Solar, and Wind. Redarc and CTEK are two of the most commonly used.​

Shore charging:

The boating industry is going to lend the best options here as well, once again I would look at Blue Sea products. There are many sizes to choose from, based upon the size of your battery bank. This can be setup as having a shore charging plug on the side of your vehicle to plug an extension cord into, or as simple as just leaving the attached cord intact, and plugging it into an extension cord and running that to a plug or generator.​

Solar:

Portable: Any one of the plethora of available solar setups: Overland Solar, LenSun Solar foldable or semi-flexible, Renogy (Solar Suitcase), Flex-o-Power, etc. These can be relatively inexpensive, all the way up to OMG pricing. Sometimes without reason for such inflated pricing such as charging more just because it's "Overland", other times it can make sense. For example, Flex-o-Power's panels are quite expensive, but their solar cells are divided more than most others, which means if a cell becomes shaded, voltage suffers less from the shading. Cover one corner of a solar cell and a cheaper cell may lose as much as HALF its voltage, whereas a cell that's divided into 32 sections might only lose 1/32 of the usable voltage.
Permanent: The other way to go is with a permanent installation. A little harder to do correctly, now you must consider installations that will water-proof your pass-thru, mounting panels in such a way that doesn't cause leaks, etc. The advantage is you're always setup, and will charge everywhere you park without shade. You will have to climb up there and clean the panels from time to time: dust plus moisture (morning dew) equals MUD, and will reduce efficiency. The best panels in this scenario are Renogy Eclipse, LenSun Solar Semi-flexible panels which are very low profile, etc.​

Your portable welder:

Talk to the manufacturer, but I'm pretty sure none of these systems are designed to work off of battery banks alone. They are designed for engine running/generator setups. The toll it will put on the batteries will overpower the battery banks ability to recover from sharp draws. Also 6 volt batteries are designed as "long distance runners", meaning small amounts of amps over very long periods of time. Starting batteries are "sprinters", meaning very large current draws for very short periods of time. Most of your marine/house batteries are long distance runners in nature. Every portable welder setup I've seen has either a very large upgraded alternator or an AC Generator (5000 watt range) mounted and powered by the engine of the vehicle.​

A common misconception exists for things like winches, inverters, large current draw items, that you have to have a dual battery installation. It's not exactly true. These items are just not meant to run without the engine running. Which is why all vehicles that have inverters in them, even small ones (200-400 watt), come from the factory without the ability to operate them without the engine running. These items should only be hooked to the starting battery so as to isolate them from the auxiliary setup, since they'll only be in use while the engine is running anyway.

Post level: EPIC

 

[Mitch]

Thanks, @Mitch for sharing your extensive knowledge. Looks like I will stick with all 12-volt batteries as I did not consider the sealed aspect vs maintenance.

The portable welder is a "ReadyWelder" http://readywelder.com/ I have had this thing for many years and it works surprisingly well. While I have known Pat formerly of Premiere Power Welder, I could never bring myself to invest in that nice of a unit for emergency repair. It has proven that most of the time I am not welding my own stuff. You have given me great advice thanks again for sharing.

From their website FAQ...

4. I’ve got two 12 volt batteries under the hood of my vehicle. Can I hook up the Ready-Welder II to these batteries with the motor running and batteries cable still connected?

Answer: No. The batteries are normally wired in parallel for these applications (assuming your vehicle operates ion 12 volt) and the RWI-II normally uses 24 volt for welding and requires these batteries to be wired in series. Be sure to read the operating instructions page for some exception to the 24 volt rule! Leaving the batteries connected to the vehicles electrical system while the RW-II [is in use] may cause severe damage to the vehicles electrical system. Don’t do it! Quick disconnects are readily available from Wal-Mart and other stores that make this easier.

From what I can gather using info on their site is that this unit needs a minimum of 18 volts (three 6 volt batteries in series, or one 12 volt and one 6 volt in series) for thin material welding, 24 volts (two 12 volt batteries in series - See attached diagram), and as much as 36 volts (three 12 volt batteries in series) needed for thicker materials. Anything over 40 volts is not recommended.

They also REQUIRE that the battery bank being used be DISCONNECTED from the vehicle while the welder is in use.

In other words, it is recommended that a separate battery bank be set up for use with this welder. This bank could be charged with an onboard DC to DC charger that is made for charging 18 to 36 volt battery banks, but should have a disconnect in-line in order to comply with their mandate.

 

[Jeff Knoll]

The batteries have always been removed from the vehicle when in use in the past. Usually, the affair turns into a welding party with a couple donated batteries from folks with a second battery in case of damage. Previous to owning the spool gun, we used jumper cables and welding rod for emergency repair. (radio antenna does not work in a pinch, but you would be surprised what can be scavenged to use as filler.)

Now that I stop and think about how many times I have been with groups that require trail welding, I can't help but remember how many exciting adventures I have been lucky enough to participate in. The level of trail fix ingenuity and imagination was impressive. Three pairs of sunglasses seem to be the correct shade.

The RedArc website gave me all sorts of bad ideas, thanks for sharing that site. I need to stop and consider exactly what my power needs are going to be, which don't seem like much until I start adding up electronics and chargers. It would be convenient to have the ability to isolate the two house batteries with quick connects to hook up the welder, but I suspect that the leads would not always be long enough and the batteries would still need to be fairly accessible. I am toying with a couple locations to mount the secondary batteries, perhaps I need to rank the ability to remove them high in that planning.
I originally planned to spend about $2500 on my battery set up (excluding any solar), I could see this blowing right past that budget.

 

[Dave]

Radio antenna and 3 pairs of sunglasses...

That’s when you know it’s getting desperate

 

[Code Red]

Good battery or really really good battery?

I looked at Odysseys etc... and ended up buying a $105 Duracell from Batteries Plus. I read somewhere that its a re-branded Deka, but I don't know what that means. I have no idea if it was a good call, but I am setting up my wife's truck next and wouldn't mind some feedback from the experts.

My understanding is that our deep-cycle batteries are good for a certain number of deep discharges before they start to lose their mojo.

Great batteries like the Odyssey will do this more than Good batteries like the Duracell. Odyssey says their Group 31 will go down to 50% about 550 cycles before losing its mojo. It will go down to 80% about 400 cycles. I can't find anything on the Duracell/Deka.

I have no idea how many cycles I can get out of the Duracell, but I am not in a position where I am going to get out more than 20 nights a year. At that rate, it seems that even running it down to 80% I will replace the Duracell due to old age before I could even approach its real capacity. My little Engel is barely taking the surface charge off of it on an overnight trip. If I could get out significantly more nights than that, then I would probably invest in solar and be both kinder to and less dependent upon the battery. So what does the Odyssey or similar get me? Is it a temperature or hard use advantage? Can I discharge it deeper without damaging it? Does it accept a charge faster?

 

[Jeff Knoll]

@Mitch since you have me really thinking about this whole set up, I reached out to a friend about a Premier Power Welder this morning. Looks like the best bet is to bury the batteries and use the Premiere method. I think I can still use the Ready welder as a Spool Gun, but I need to verify. I am way off on this part of my project, but I am grateful for the feedback.

 

[Scott B.]

@Mitch since you have me really thinking about this whole set up, I reached out to a friend about a Premier Power Welder this morning. Looks like the best bet is to bury the batteries and use the Premiere method. I think I can still use the Ready welder as a Spool Gun, but I need to verify. I am way off on this part of my project, but I am grateful for the feedback.

Jeff,

I read your build thread. Given your new purpose - exploring vs. racing - do you really need a welder? I know they are great to have, but if you are not pounding your truck across the desert, most likely you won't break anything and won't need the welder.

Just a thought.

 

[Jeff Knoll]

Jeff,

I read your build thread. Given your new purpose - exploring vs. racing - do you really need a welder? I know they are great to have, but if you are not pounding your truck across the desert, most likely you won't break anything and won't need the welder.

Just a thought.

An excellent observation. I don't think I need an onboard welder, but it sure has been handy the others times I did not need an onboard welder.

 

[Scott B.]

An excellent observation. I don't think I need an onboard welder, but it sure has been handy the others times I did not need an onboard welder.

I know they are handy. If you need one, nothing else will do.

 

[ArkansasDon]

I run a XS Power AGM on my 2000 GMC z71 as a cranking battery & powers my 12,000lb winch. I run NO LED floods or any off road accessories on this truck. I like keeping things simple & less cluttered on my truck. I am not no hard rocker off roader. My overland trailer I run a VMax tank 125amp hr & it's a heavy battery @ close 90lbs.

 

[ArkansasDon]

I see a lot of recommendations for the VMax Tank AGM batteries. Are these good bang for the buck for a trailer w/solar? Or just a so-so battery with lots of folks buying it who don't know any difference? Looking at this one on Amazon: http://amzn.to/2sZ2feD

I love my VMax Tank Steve, IMO it was a great choice for my trailer\solar set up. I like the fact it has a 10 to 12 yr life span as long as I do not run it below.

 

[Steve & Deb]

I love my VMax Tank Steve, IMO it was a great choice for my trailer\solar set up.

Thanks Don. I ended up getting an Odyssey 31M-800 (100A/Hr) through an AutoZone online discount at only $10 more than Amazon's VMax Tank 125 A/Hr price. I pick it up tomorrow.

I'll have a mounted 100W solar panel on my trailer, as well as a portable 100W panel to keep it topped off. Plus a NOCO Genius 1 10A shore charger. It will not be charged by the truck's alternator. It will power some LED lighting, the vent fan, charge my phone and camera batteries, and I'll run an extension to the truck to power the fridge while parked. It should work out fine for my use.

Thanks!

 

[Mitch]

There a a few misconceptions out there with regards to dual batteries and winches, and battery types with winches.

Some definitions:
STARTER BATTERY: "The Sprinter" in athletic terms. Designed to give short bursts of very high amounts of energy. The kind that your starter needs. The kind that winches need when used properly. These batteries recover very quickly from short, heavy draws of power. Usually measured in COLD CRANKING AMPS that will indicate the amount of amps the battery is capable of delivering in a cold state. If your engine will not start, you will get several decent cranks before power starts to diminish, requiring a longer delay between cranking attempts.
DEEP CYCLE BATTERY: "The Long Distance Runner" in athletic terms. Designed to provide small amounts of power over very long periods of time. They do NOT recover very quickly from surge power draws. Perfect for running your fridge, LED lights, operational systems, etc. Deeper power drains will require much longer recharge cycles on these types of batteries. Usually measured in Amp Hours, defining the amount of amps available for use over a 20 hour work cycle.

DUAL PURPOSE BATTERY: I'm not sure if it was EnerSys/Odyssey, or some other that pioneered these, but later developments in Lead Acid batteries combined the best of both worlds into one battery. Both a Sprinter and Long Distance Runner in one, but like all other things that try to be all things, they end up not being able to all things as well as a dedicated design. In the case of the Dual Purpose, this usually affects the deep cycle portion. Dual Purpose batteries will not have the higher Amp Hour ratings you can find in some of the more traditional Deep Cycle batteries, but that's the trade-off to having a battery that can both start your car, and run your operations for long periods of time.

You do NOT need dual batteries to run a winch. Every single winch on the automotive market was designed to operate with a single starter battery/alternator combination.

Contrary to the "Book of Overlander Requirements: Compliance Codes, Gear Minimums, and Clothing Brands to be accepted as an Overlander", you do NOT need a dual battery to effectively operate off grid while camping. It isn't needed for winching, it isn't needed for jump starting, it isn't needed for running your fridge and camp lights. It ends up being an unnecessary expense that provides some peace of mind that could have just as easily been provided by cheaper means (like an affordable lithium jump pack). There are exceptions, where dual batteries are required, but they typically aren't found while camping.

What I have found, spending my time making a living installing electrical systems for overlanders these last few years, is that most people want the convenience of a dual battery system that ends up being self-defeated by their misunderstanding of the constraints, and unwillingness to properly maintain that system. They ultimately end up destroying the system, and find out that their 12 year battery only lasted two years because of the abuse.

This is why on RV's, Law/Fire Department Command Vehicles, boats, etc, you will find ON-BOARD battery chargers connected to shore power ports on the sides of the vehicles. This isn't so they can "opt" to use AC when there is power available, that is a side benefit, it's so that when these vehicles are not in use, the batteries are being maintained properly by a charger designed for the task and battery bank size.

I'm starting to rant here a little, a little tough love applied during what I hope is an education for folks to help them apply common sense and proper application when selecting the method to #PowerYourAdventures.

 

[Dave]

Contrary to the "Book of Overlander Requirements: Compliance Codes, Gear Minimums, and Clothing Brands to be accepted as an Overlander", you do NOT need a dual battery to effectively operate off grid while camping. It isn't needed for winching, it isn't needed for jump starting, it isn't needed for running your fridge and camp lights. It ends up being an unnecessary expense that provides some peace of mind that could have just as easily been provided by cheaper means (like an affordable lithium jump pack). There are exceptions, where dual batteries are required, but they typically aren't found while camping.

 

[Scott B.]

@Mitch, I've been thinking about what you said in my build thread, and what you say here. I am going to add an external charger for the second battery.

My question is, can one external charger charge two batteries simultaneously? In other words, can you attach a charger to one battery, and tie in the second battery?

 

[Mitch]

@Mitch, I've been thinking about what you said in my build thread, and what you say here. I am going to add an external charger for the second battery.

My question is, can one external charger charge two batteries simultaneously? In other words, can you attach a charger to one battery, and tie in the second battery?

Yes. There are a number of multiple bank battery chargers. But you and I should talk. PM'ing you my number.

There are so many variables. Such as battery types/chemistry (mixed AGM/Wet Cell, vs. matched, etc)

 

[ArkansasDon]

I don't care what Optima has done to improve their product, I don't trust them, and never will again.

But I've been known to be an unforgiving bastige. When the price range is in the same ballpark why take chances? I'm going to stick to good ole made in the USA, Odyssey.

I couldn't agree more Mitch. When I was building my bowfishing boat I wanted a boat that was silent running, everything powered off batteries: LED lights & the trolling motor which both had their own battery. When my batteries dropped to a certain % I would fire up my 2500W Inverter Generator with joining of the 2 Powermax 55amp 750 watt Converters I would have reliable power source as well as a charging source. At time everyone (bowfishing community) was praising Optima as the battery for deep cells to have. I only got a few seasons out of the Optima's. It wasn't like I abused the batteries @ the time 189.00 ea X 2 adds up fast. What a huge disappointment. I can run 4 hrs on batteries with 10 40W 12V LED Flood lights & 12V 54lb 54" Watersnake Troller Motor, 4 small deck lights before my batteries drop to a certain % where I would fire up my inverter genny & switch on the 2 55amp 750 watt converters (located in the grey box) next to the batteries. It seems my 2 31 series Walmart deep cells are better batteries & are on 4 yrs & will give me another full season of bowfishing. The 3rd pic showed each battery had it's one meters with switch that powered so we could keep track of the power consumption of each battery.

I do not know if the Optima's cells cracked or what from wakes on the river (that constant jarring) racing to spots to hunt fish or who knows? All I know is 2 yrs (2 seasons of bow fishing) is what I got from them.

View attachment 38496

 

[Scott B.]

Yes. There are a number of multiple bank battery chargers. But you and I should talk. PM'ing you my number.

There are so many variables. Such as battery types/chemistry (mixed AGM/Wet Cell, vs. matched, etc)

We talked - thanks for the info, Mitch. It's nice to learn things now and then.

So, I am staying with dual batteries, but my wiring design is changing slightly. Actually, being enhanced is a better way to put it. And, my second battery will appreciate it and probably live a longer life because of it.