Upgrade to Full Size - How Full?

#61
I think the only REAL difference affecting GVWR between the PW and a 2500 is the springs. The frame et al is the same IIRC.

That said, having owned one and wheeled one, the diesel is HEAVY. My front axle weight is as much as my old Tacoma weighed at 5,500 lbs. The diesel trucks are just not as agile as the gassers because of that front axle weight. Heavier is not a good quality on the trail. So while I agree there are LOTS of pros to owning the diesel (it's an AMAZING engine!), there are some significant cons as well in my experience.

YMMV.
Three things come to mind for me, because I've been scratching my head about this, and we always are discussing it in offroad power wagon.

Coils, Shocks, and Tires. The vehicle is lifted from the factory, soft coils, soft shocks, and d-rated tires with very soft side walls on a 17 inch wheel. That's my best guess.

The axles are the same size (9.25 & 11.50); but curious, I have 500lbs less axle weight rating on the front than the standard 6.4 2500. I also have 200lbs more axle weight rating in the rear than the standard 6.4 2500.

Yeah, that one is weird. Less up front, more out back??

Only guess.... lockers?? It's the same damn axle with 4.10s... ???

The payload is usually determined by subtracting whatever the determined GVWR is from the vehicle's base weight. That varies truck to truck with the options you get. The PW usually has less payload because the GVWR is already reduced.

Personally, I don't look at it as full gossip to follow to the T. But I do pay attention and try not to overload axles, tires.

On that note, I am technically over my FAWR. But I also have an axle truss, diff protection, heavier tires, larger heavier shocks and a steel bumper all hanging off the front now .... But if I look up the standard 6.4 2500 FAWR, I'm not over the axle rating. So...... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ am I in life threating danger?? Will my axle explode?

And I have CAT tickets from when we bought the truck and weighted it with us in it. And we were 200lbs from the FAWR anyhow. So.... dafuq is with that?

Again, lots of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Random aside:

I've mentioned this before, but I noticed when researching 1/2 tons awhile back, that the RAM 1500 had more built-in safety in the axle ratings compared to the Ford F150. A little fuzzy, but I think the F150 had like 200lbs when you added up front and rear axle weight rating and subtracted the GVWR vs the Ram 1500 which was like 1000lbs. I dunno what that means in terms of anything really. Just a random factoid I noticed.

And it's been awhile, but I think it was 3900lbs FAWR & RAWR on the Ram 1500 which comes to 7800 lbs, but the door sticker put the truck at 6800 GVWR ??? Again, I haven't had the 1500 since 2016 and haven't had to recite this in awhile, so take all these numbers with that in mind.

This is mostly bad memory rambling.

I just find it interesting. No one has really been able to ever fully detail how GVWR's are arrived at. I am sure a lot of engineering numbers and then liability concerns are taken into account.

Tires, frame durability, longevity, liability, coils, shocks, etc. A lot of factors.


I think the fellows over at Diesel Power Products built a project Ram 2500 with the 6.7l Cummins and used it for rock-crawling during a recent Ultimate Adventure trip with the Four Wheeler crowd. According to the after action, the truck through got through everything, though it suffered some damage (which seems to be the norm for those events).

The point is, those heavy-a## trucks can be used on the technical trails if modified properly.
Yeah, they cut the bed off a long bed single cab, shoved a short bed box on it, put 42's on it and didn't weld the axle tubes and spun the axles. Not to mention re-geared, cut the pinch seam off, relocated the DEF tank, custom rear bumper, lockers, etc. That is a very very expensive rig. I love the Howizter! It's an awesome build.

But that thing is not an "everyday man build" I wanted to copy their work on the pinch seam and move my sliders up, and when I got to talking with a body shop about the amount of work and cost, that idea quickly evaporated.

I don't have a "body shop buddy" who can just do me a solid like those guys.

But I do have a Canadian pal who wrecked his PW and moved all the parts over to his Cummins, and he wheeled with us in Moab and did just fine. Except for when we all went to play in the Dunes. He sank like a rock. LOL

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This is true. But then again it holds true for pretty much all types of 4wd vehicles. Vehicle damage seems to be normal, almost expected, at those Ultimate Adventure gatherings. So anyone trying to recreate those 'adventures' is going to have the potential for hefty repair bills. Similar issue for Ken Block wanna-be's jumping their Raptors, ect. ect....stupidity is not limited to any particular brand or vehicle type.
I dunno...

There seem to be two types. Guys who manage to tear up everything no matter what and those who can manage to do the same line/trail/obstacle without tearing everything up.

Being stupid will always result in breakages.

Mistakes happen, and stuff breaks. That's chance.

But stupid is avoidable.
 
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#63
Yeah, they cut the bed off a long bed single cab, shoved a short bed box on it, put 42's on it and didn't weld the axle tubes and spun the axles. Not to mention re-geared, cut the pinch seam off, relocated the DEF tank, custom rear bumper, lockers, etc. That is a very very expensive rig. I love the Howizter! It's an awesome build.

But that thing is not an "everyday man build" I wanted to copy their work on the pinch seam and move my sliders up, and when I got to talking with a body shop about the amount of work and cost, that idea quickly evaporated.
It certainly isn't an "everyday man build," but it is doable if someone has the time and money. I think in their most recent iteration, they've moved all the emissions stuff to back underneath the truck to free up bed space. Of interest too is that they've deemed the OEM radius arms to be a weakpoint and have switched to a 4-link front suspension to facilitate better articulation. So you're right in that they've heavily modified a lot of things on that heavy beast to make it capable of technical rock-crawling.

Personally, I have no desire to expend all that effort trying to turn a diesel 3/4 ton into a rock-buggy, but I'm still very impressed with the work and ingenuity that went into that build, especially considering that its emissions compliant. In my view, the money spent on that project is no different from the numerous hardcore wheelers who dump thousands of $, sometimes tens of thousands of $, rebuilding the axles and suspension of a Jeep Wrangler or building a long-travel IFS for a Tacoma or Tundra.
 

TangoBlue

Adventurist
Senior Staff
Founding Member
#66
I wasn't insinuating that Diesel Power Product's vehicle project, or your own, was a worthless endeavor. I'm just saying that people will spend money on stuff that may be important to them, even if it's not important to others.

BTW, that's a pretty sweet-looking Tacoma.
For all the "thousands of $, sometimes tens of thousands of $", you bloody well better think that's a pretty sweet (looking? WTF you say?) Tacoma. Especially with the 5.3L LS motor, Atlas transfer case, and LED light bulb swap! :tango

And actually, it is a worthless endeavor, when you remove the emotion and passion from it. But that's not why we're here, right? :D
 
#67
It certainly isn't an "everyday man build," but it is doable if someone has the time and money. I think in their most recent iteration, they've moved all the emissions stuff to back underneath the truck to free up bed space. Of interest too is that they've deemed the OEM radius arms to be a weakpoint and have switched to a 4-link front suspension to facilitate better articulation. So you're right in that they've heavily modified a lot of things on that heavy beast to make it capable of technical rock-crawling.
I don't get why those dorks are running AEV spacers and crappy Bilstein shocks on that truck. After running Moab hard this year with Kings, never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever again am I running mono-tube off the shelf shocks. But they are AEV vendors.... hehe
 
#69
This is true. But then again it holds true for pretty much all types of 4wd vehicles. Vehicle damage seems to be normal, almost expected, at those Ultimate Adventure gatherings. So anyone trying to recreate those 'adventures' is going to have the potential for hefty repair bills. Similar issue for Ken Block wanna-be's jumping their Raptors, ect. ect....stupidity is not limited to any particular brand or vehicle type.
My personal version of this is part of why I left the rock crawling, difficult trail scene. There is a never ending storm, even if careful, of breakage, leading to upgrade... OR... even with no breakage upgraditis kicks in to get over that one next obstacle... I don't know if it is unavoidable, at least for me. So here I am with a non modified Tundra with a slide in camper.. happily sitting by the side of the trail, smiling.
 
#71
Al little off topic, but . . . upgraditis.

My personal version of this is part of why I left the rock crawling, difficult trail scene. There is a never ending storm, even if careful, of breakage, leading to upgrade... OR... even with no breakage upgraditis kicks in to get over that one next obstacle... I don't know if it is unavoidable, at least for me. So here I am with a non modified Tundra with a slide in camper.. happily sitting by the side of the trail, smiling.
Sooooo true. I went down that road, constantly modding and "upgrading" until I realized I had a 1972 CJ6 with nothing original but the sheet metal and the steering wheel. About that time we bought this 1972 CJ5 out of a guy's back yard for parts. Then my business evaporated and my toy budget went away. I put 30" tires on the parts truck and it became the daily driver. To my pleasant surprise it was more fun than the modified one. I still ride with my brother who is running 38's and lockers. I have as much fun as he does. I winch in different places, but I don't winch much more often. I have towed him out out the woods a few times when he breaks, but the CJ5 always comes out under her own power. It also drives the hundred miles to the farm. His modified jeep rides on a trailer.

There's a lot to be said for factory engineering, and reliability is usually (though not always) one of the advantages.

Probably not as practical a choice for overlanding as any of the options discussed above, payload and range are terrible (but I have read AMC rated it to tow 5,000 lbs). And it is a little loud when you need to make some time on the interstate.

Performance, like beauty, is sometimes in the eye if the beholder.

Valley 2012-01-01 010.jpg
Ain't she pretty?

Jeep_Pull_Ad.jpg
 
#72
My personal version of this is part of why I left the rock crawling, difficult trail scene. There is a never ending storm, even if careful, of breakage, leading to upgrade... OR... even with no breakage upgraditis kicks in to get over that one next obstacle....
There should be a commercial for 4x4 owners. The intro would read: "For just $10 a day, you can support an indebted truck junkie suffering from a crippling case of upgraditis ..."

And of course, we'd need some bearded fellow in a button-down shirt to promote it all:

 
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smlobx

Adventurist
#73
First, I'll admit to being a long time Diesel fan having owned diesel trucks since 2000 or so.

I just came back from a month long overlanding expedition to Botswana, South Africa and Zimbabwe where we rented a great Toyota Land Cruiser completely outfitted for off-road travel. We drove several thousand kilometers offroad in some of the roughest terrain I have ever been on from deep soft sand to 30 degree climb up a rock trail to fording 3 foot deep rivers and the ONLY vehicle that we saw in the bush were diesels (90% land cruisers the rest land rovers).
The ability to lock both axles and shift into 1st low and let the diesel idle up a mountain or slowly descend a very steep hill is impossible in any gas vehicle...

I need to to a TR... but here's a picture of one of the milder crossings for now..

IMG_0818.JPG
 

Dave

Adventurist
Founder
Senior Staff
Editor
#75
As a rock crawler, I disagree with that, it's all about the gearing in the vehicle.
Agreed 100%. Having just dropped off the "diesel is better" bandwagon, I can say with certainty that it's not all engine. Gears, suspension, the weight and vehicle dynamics along with driver skill all work together to influence traction along with power/torque. Torque alone does not equal traction.
 

TangoBlue

Adventurist
Senior Staff
Founding Member
#76
Piling on... I disagree with your analysis too. It's about gearing; and I hope you didn't have both axles locked full-time...

Love the 70-series... in fact, I just drove one today. A RHD turbo-diesel with an H55 (5-spd) transmission. :D
 
#77
I do not have diesel experience outside of my 2 tractors... but... if the diesels we were allowed to have in vehicles were like the tractors.. (damn... always run... always.) so simple and easy to maintain, run, etc.... I would be in for the long haul. The complexity of the modern engine that gives it so many convenient features is nice, but the simple "1 wire" diesel in my tractors is hard to argue with. Seems like the diesels in street vehicles are almost not related to the tractor engines...

And, I agree... it is all about gearing (and strength in the drivetrain) for crawling.
 

smlobx

Adventurist
#78
As a rock crawler, I disagree with that, it's all about the gearing in the vehicle.

Looks like I hit a nerve with a few of you...sorry if my opinion and experience doesn't agree with yours..
But I'll try to address each comment..

Bobby I do agree that gearing is very important, along with a host of other factors. As far as I know we are discussing overlanding not rock crawling which I have no interest in or experience with..
 
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smlobx

Adventurist
#79
Agreed 100%. Having just dropped off the "diesel is better" bandwagon, I can say with certainty that it's not all engine. Gears, suspension, the weight and vehicle dynamics along with driver skill all work together to influence traction along with power/torque. Torque alone does not equal traction.
Dave see my comments to Bobby.
However the ability to have maximum torque at a much lower rpm helps crawling up steep terrain in a more controlled manner...
 

smlobx

Adventurist
#80
Piling on... I disagree with your analysis too. It's about gearing; and I hope you didn't have both axles locked full-time...

Love the 70-series... in fact, I just drove one today. A RHD turbo-diesel with an H55 (5-spd) transmission. :D
Tango I respect your (and others here) opinions.
As far as locking the axles were concerned on this expedition the only time we did that was in a rather deep river fording (in a straight line) where we wanted every bit of traction we could get in order to avoid getting stuck in 2 to 3 feet of running water.
 
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