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I'm the same mindset. Diesel for towing/working heavy. Otherwise, most of the advantages disappear. I think the "adventure obsession" with diesel is the myth that you are going to get magical milage and travel thousands of miles on a tank. That or a misconception of how much "torque" you really need to offroad.

I've never said to myself "gee I wish I had 900ft/lbs of torque, it'd make getting up this obstacle easier" because that's not a reality or a thought that crosses my mind ever on the trail. Gas does more than enough.
 
BoldAdventure said:
I'm the same mindset. Diesel for towing/working heavy. Otherwise, most of the advantages disappear. I think the "adventure obsession" with diesel is the myth that you are going to get magical milage and travel thousands of miles on a tank. That or a misconception of how much "torque" you really need to offroad.

I've never said to myself "gee I wish I had 900ft/lbs of torque, it'd make getting up this obstacle easier" because that's not a reality or a thought that crosses my mind ever on the trail. Gas does more than enough.
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I think the "mythical mileage" is right on the money.

I am IN LOVE with my diesel truck, after coming form the Ford V10, but its a giant brick and 14k lbs, perfect application for a diesel.

For wheeling, I think having to have a turbo spool could suck, its annoying at times in my big truck trying to carefully maneuver. And 900ft lbs just snaps things faster :D
 
BoldAdventure said:
I'm the same mindset. Diesel for towing/working heavy. Otherwise, most of the advantages disappear. I think the "adventure obsession" with diesel is the myth that you are going to get magical milage and travel thousands of miles on a tank. That or a misconception of how much "torque" you really need to offroad.

I've never said to myself "gee I wish I had 900ft/lbs of torque, it'd make getting up this obstacle easier" because that's not a reality or a thought that crosses my mind ever on the trail. Gas does more than enough.
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Well to be fair, those heavy, +900lb-ft diesel engines weren't designed specifically with offroading in mind, though some people use them for such. They're designed for industrial and towing applications.

The 6.4l Hemi's power delivery is certainly more than adequate for the type of offroad driving a PW will likely see.

The 'adventure' obsession with diesel has some merit though. I've driven those inline 4 diesels used overseas in Hilux's. And I've heard from plenty of owners that the 2.8l duramax in the Colorado offers similar driving characteristics. Easy low-end torque, very good fuel efficiency in a package that offers a marginal weight increase over the gasoline v6's normally used in such platforms. Tacoma's and 4runners with their gasoline v6's are lucky to break 20 mpg; the diesel Colorado has been getting upwards of 30 mpg. I think those small displacement diesels offer quite a few advantages, but they have tradeoff's as well. The issue with 'diesel' in North America is that OEM's have been slow to employ them outside of the 3/4 ton segments, for whatever reason, so people have had little exposure to them as compared to overseas where they are heavily preferred for offroad use.

But we certainly have more diesel options now then we did 10 years ago. It seems to be a growing trend within North America's truck and 4x4 market.
 
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bob91yj said:
With all of the recent emissions equipment tacked on to diesels and they are trouble looking for a place to happen IMO.
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This.

The allure of diesel, IMHO, resides with an earlier generation. The simplicity and durability of a mechanically regulated vice electronic or ECU. This also depends on an operator with the tools who could perform repairs or maintenance in the field in austere locations.

Today - not so much with modern diesels. Put these contemporary vehicles in the bush with an engine condition and you're tango uniform.
 
The emissions, at least the newer systems which use DEF, aren't nearly as problematic as some people make them out to be. Compared to 10 years ago, these newer emissions-compliant diesels are actually far more reliable in my opinion. I think that trend towards improvement will continue going forward. A few bad stories from the internet get passed around as gospel and interpreted as the norm. But for every one of those, there are many more owners who have hundreds of thousands of miles of mostly trouble-free ownership.

The newer diesels are more complicated than the older ones, that much I agree with. But those older ones were less refined and less capable than these newer ones...complexity is the main tradeoff for having more advanced systems, which is relevant to any modern engine, including gasoline ones.
 
I work at a GM dealership, I see the problems with the newer (DEF) emissions issues on a daily basis.

I had a customer tow his boat to Cabo from San Diego, his truck went in to limp mode in Guerro Negro on the way home...he got to sit in his truck on the back of a Mexican flat bed tow truck for 1200 miles to get home.

I'll keep my '06 and be content with it, thank you very much.
 
This is a great and unfortunately timely thread for me. I am pretty sure the insurance is going to total my 2016 Tacoma after being creamed by an idiot doing an illegal pass on a two lane rural road. I am carrying a FWC Fleet and I think the Power Wagon is the way to go rather than the Colorado or another nice, but under powered Tacoma.
 
A Power Wagon with an FWC Hawk either slide in or on a flatbed is pushing the payload limits. Sad but true. The PW is not really a 3/4 Ton in the normal sense. It’s towing and payload numbers are far less than its siblings. I drove a PW at OX this year and while it is perfect in every way, the thing would be maxed out with a pop up style camper on it.

I’m a diehard diesel guy...and wile there is a greater ante to get into one they will pay benefits from day one. They get much better mileage...fact. Yes diesel costs more but even with that factored in you can get 8ish mpg better on a similarly rigged truck to a gasser. Second, you have plenty of power on tap for long hills, freeway merging, towing (even towing your buddies home or back to the pave to meet a wrecker, when none of the other trucks could do it), etc. Don’t count out having that power there when you need it. Third...most diesels have plenty of payload and towing GCWR for what most of us will need. Fourth, for me...you often get stronger running gear, ie. bigger diffs, bigger trans, bigger brakes, etc in a 1 Ton diesel compared to 1 Ton gassers and certainly more than 1/2 tons. I personally like having way more truck than I need...but I am a Teamster and Wendal like big toys.

I would not poo poo a diesel even with the increased costs...which in the end, as has been mentioned will pay dividends on top of what I mentioned above.
 
Local399 said:
A Power Wagon with an FWC Hawk either slide in or on a flatbed is pushing the payload limits. Sad but true. The PW is not really a 3/4 Ton in the normal sense. It’s towing and payload numbers are far less than its siblings. I drove a PW at OX this year and while it is perfect in every way, the thing would be maxed out with a pop up style camper on it.
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I get what you're saying about the PW's payload ratings. FCA had to balance the PW's offroad prowess with payload capabilities.

With that said, @BoldAdventure said something earlier in this thread which I've reflected on and find myself agreeing with more and more as time goes on. These newer 3/4 and 1 ton platforms (to include the PW) do seem to be built and engineered to a higher standard compared to your average 1/2 ton or midsized pickup. The frames, chassis setup, and drivetrains all seem to be built with hard work and abuse in mind, whereas many trucks in other categories seem to balance work capabilities with onroad comfort (weekend warrior usage if you will). There was a recent episode of the Truck Show podcast (episode 9 I think) where a Ford representative was interviewed about the new diesel F-150. During the interview he stated very clearly that the F-150 platform is rated for a 150k mile/10 year service life, whereas the Ford Super Duty is rated for a longer service life.

I'm not saying all 1/2 tons and midsized trucks are crap and will fall apart as soon as they hit the 10 year mark. But I do think that a North American HD pickup has a bit more inherent longevity and durability as compared to other truck segments, in the same way that Toyota Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols overseas are thought to be a notch above the other 4x4's (even other Nissan's and Toyota's). I know from my own experiences that midsized and 1/2 ton platforms can last a long time if driven within their capabilities. But for the type of person who tests those OEM ratings (especially in regards to towing and payload), I see the merit of getting into a HD platform.

I would think that the PW's underlying platform (Ram 2500) is more than capable of handling a FWC Hawk or slide-in. The suspension might need to be addressed, but everything else in the truck should be more than capable of handling that kind of work.

Edit: changed 'agree' to 'agreeing.'
 
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Local399 said:
A Power Wagon with an FWC Hawk either slide in or on a flatbed is pushing the payload limits. Sad but true. The PW is not really a 3/4 Ton in the normal sense. It’s towing and payload numbers are far less than its siblings. I drove a PW at OX this year and while it is perfect in every way, the thing would be maxed out with a pop up style camper on it... snip...

... snip... Fourth, for me...you often get stronger running gear, ie. bigger diffs, bigger trans, bigger brakes, etc in a 1 Ton diesel compared to 1 Ton gassers and certainly more than 1/2 tons. I personally like having way more truck than I need...but I am a Teamster and Wendal like big toys.

I would not poo poo a diesel even with the increased costs...which in the end, as has been mentioned will pay dividends on top of what I mentioned above.
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I think the only REAL difference affecting GVWR between the PW and a 2500 is the springs. The frame et al is the same IIRC.

That said, having owned one and wheeled one, the diesel is HEAVY. My front axle weight is as much as my old Tacoma weighed at 5,500 lbs. The diesel trucks are just not as agile as the gassers because of that front axle weight. Heavier is not a good quality on the trail. So while I agree there are LOTS of pros to owning the diesel (it's an AMAZING engine!), there are some significant cons as well in my experience.

YMMV.
 
I think your comments on the 1/2 ton trucks is spot on. In my truck search, the vast majority of the 1/2 tons I looked at were basically luxury cars with a box. And those buyers want all the creature comforts plus the box for the few times they ever use it. My guess is that anyone wanting to buy a 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck truly needs that payload for something and is willing to give up the car like ride that many 1/2 tons have.
 
Dave said:
That said, having owned one and wheeled one, the diesel is HEAVY. My front axle weight is as much as my old Tacoma weighed at 5,500 lbs. The diesel tracks are just not as agile as the gassers because of that front axle weight. Heavier is not a good quality on the trail. So while I agree there are LOTS of pros to owning the diesel (it's an AMAZING engine!), there are some significant cons as well in my experience.

YMMV.
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I think the fellows over at Diesel Power Products built a project Ram 2500 with the 6.7l Cummins and used it for rock-crawling during a recent Ultimate Adventure trip with the Four Wheeler crowd. According to the after action, the truck through got through everything, though it suffered some damage (which seems to be the norm for those events).

The point is, those heavy-a## trucks can be used on the technical trails if modified properly. With that said, there is no doubt in my mind that a lighter Jeep platform or even a gasoline-PW is going to have an easier time getting through similar terrain. Now, a lighter diesel engine, like the R2.8l Cummins that Fred Williams put into his famous "Tube Sock" jeep, might give you the best of both worlds.
 
Big diesel in rocks is one thing, plenty of traction as long as you don't break anything. Big diesel in mud sinks to China... ;)
 
TangoBlue said:
Yeah, many consumers like to think they can recreate those antics off road, fueled by the "testosterone storm" they witness on YouTube with their own "insert model here" OHV.

It's another thing to pay for the repairs later that insurance won't cover... :rolleyes:
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This is true. But then again it holds true for pretty much all types of 4wd vehicles. Vehicle damage seems to be normal, almost expected, at those Ultimate Adventure gatherings. So anyone trying to recreate those 'adventures' is going to have the potential for hefty repair bills. Similar issue for Ken Block wanna-be's jumping their Raptors, ect. ect....stupidity is not limited to any particular brand or vehicle type.
 
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