Upgrade to Full Size - How Full?
- Thread starter srpat
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Code Red
Adventurist
Bigger truck = more maintenance. But those big 3/4 and 1 ton trucks will last a looong time if you do the (expensive) required maintenance.
Personal Experience: My wife is daily driving a 2005 F250 with the 6.0L diesel. The engine everybody says is the worst one Ford ever offered. We bought it new in 2005. We did the infamous head gasket and an ecu while it was still under warranty. No major repairs since. She still loves that truck. It still drives great. And we haven't made a payment on it since 2009. I offered to get her a new one. I long ago told her she can have any car she wants because I know she will keep it until she squeezes all of the value out of it. Instead of a new truck, she wanted to build on this one. She installed an ARE shell on it yesterday. We discussed the folly of putting a $3,700 shell on a 13 year old truck, but she still loves that truck. It still drives great, and it's still reliable. The cost of the upgrades will get amortized over a long long time. And there's enough room in the back to hold a square dance. The takeaway is that she's gotten 13 years of use out of that truck and it's still going strong. Makes the buy-in a little more palatable.
My other truck is a 1993 F350. Manual transmission and a non-turbo 7.3 diesel. At almost double the weight, it is significantly quicker and gets 50% better mileage than my Land Cruiser. It's been wrecked 8-9 times, stolen twice, and frankly abused and neglected, but it's all mechanical and reliable as an anvil. I wouldn't hesitate to drive this 25-year old truck around the world tomorrow. I drive the Land Cruiser because I love it. But if I was thinking with my head instead of my heart, this would be the truck for everything (except parking decks).
My point is this: There is a lot of value in a used 3/4 or 1 ton truck. Particularly in the gas versions. Gas or diesel is a preference. I love diesels, but frankly the modern gas engines seem significantly more reliable and trouble free than the modern diesels. Either way, a 3/4 or 1 ton truck, if it has been taken care of, will do what you want for a long long long time. Price depends on age and condition, but these platforms will take a lot of age without losing much capability or reliability. The diesel will give you greater range, but the aftermarket has larger and auxiliary fuel tank options for any the trucks available from the big three. You can easily modify any 3/4 ton truck to go further than you are willing to drive. If you reach back far enough, you also get another brand to look at for manual transmissions. Ford still offered them well into the 2000's.
A final note on towing: One huge safety advantage that comes with the larger trucks is larger brakes. I would never advocate towing without working trailer brakes, but starting a trip with them is no guarantee they will still be working when you arrive. The advantage in mass and stopping power on the larger trucks adds a significant safety margin when trying to stop a trailer. My wife regularly tows a 5,000lb horse trailer. That's within the factory rated capacity for a Taco, (and for that matter a 1972 CJ5), but if the trailer brakes go out, the F250 will still stop it without much drama (it has happened and my wife didn't even notice the brakes were out). The same would not be true in a smaller truck.
Personal Experience: My wife is daily driving a 2005 F250 with the 6.0L diesel. The engine everybody says is the worst one Ford ever offered. We bought it new in 2005. We did the infamous head gasket and an ecu while it was still under warranty. No major repairs since. She still loves that truck. It still drives great. And we haven't made a payment on it since 2009. I offered to get her a new one. I long ago told her she can have any car she wants because I know she will keep it until she squeezes all of the value out of it. Instead of a new truck, she wanted to build on this one. She installed an ARE shell on it yesterday. We discussed the folly of putting a $3,700 shell on a 13 year old truck, but she still loves that truck. It still drives great, and it's still reliable. The cost of the upgrades will get amortized over a long long time. And there's enough room in the back to hold a square dance. The takeaway is that she's gotten 13 years of use out of that truck and it's still going strong. Makes the buy-in a little more palatable.
My other truck is a 1993 F350. Manual transmission and a non-turbo 7.3 diesel. At almost double the weight, it is significantly quicker and gets 50% better mileage than my Land Cruiser. It's been wrecked 8-9 times, stolen twice, and frankly abused and neglected, but it's all mechanical and reliable as an anvil. I wouldn't hesitate to drive this 25-year old truck around the world tomorrow. I drive the Land Cruiser because I love it. But if I was thinking with my head instead of my heart, this would be the truck for everything (except parking decks).
My point is this: There is a lot of value in a used 3/4 or 1 ton truck. Particularly in the gas versions. Gas or diesel is a preference. I love diesels, but frankly the modern gas engines seem significantly more reliable and trouble free than the modern diesels. Either way, a 3/4 or 1 ton truck, if it has been taken care of, will do what you want for a long long long time. Price depends on age and condition, but these platforms will take a lot of age without losing much capability or reliability. The diesel will give you greater range, but the aftermarket has larger and auxiliary fuel tank options for any the trucks available from the big three. You can easily modify any 3/4 ton truck to go further than you are willing to drive. If you reach back far enough, you also get another brand to look at for manual transmissions. Ford still offered them well into the 2000's.
A final note on towing: One huge safety advantage that comes with the larger trucks is larger brakes. I would never advocate towing without working trailer brakes, but starting a trip with them is no guarantee they will still be working when you arrive. The advantage in mass and stopping power on the larger trucks adds a significant safety margin when trying to stop a trailer. My wife regularly tows a 5,000lb horse trailer. That's within the factory rated capacity for a Taco, (and for that matter a 1972 CJ5), but if the trailer brakes go out, the F250 will still stop it without much drama (it has happened and my wife didn't even notice the brakes were out). The same would not be true in a smaller truck.
BoldAdventure
Adventurist
Warning, I'm biased.
Where are you getting this info about the MPG's on the Power Wagon and not starting after, etc? Sounds like utter nonsense.No offense. I continuously hassle the dorks who get crap mileage on the FB group because it's clearly their driving. Got guys with 2017's on stock wheels getting 10mpg. And then you have some of us with 37's getting better mileage.
37's, towing I got 11.7mpg pulling an Airsteam from Boise to Moab recently. Also recently went over the CAT scales with the whole setup, talking 15860lbs total so...
Anyhow, don't bother with a 1/2 ton. Seriously, you'll be disappointed fast with the platform if you intend to do any serious trails. Solid axle with either coils or leafs out back will be a better platform to build. You already did the IFS thing, why do it again?
I already made this mistake of running a Ram 1500 for two years before switching to the Power Wagon. It's more than capable of being a tripple threat.
I can rock crawl extreme trails:
I can overland in style and comfort with a family of 5 and setup camp easily enough
I can use this truck, as a truck whenever I need to. Towing my Airstream, moving equipment, etc:
Disagree wholeheartedly.
I paid 14k more for my 2015 Ram Power Wagon vs my 2010 Ram 1500. That wasn't a huge difference in price.
Want to save, don't pay retail and don't buy a brand spanking new one.
Diesel is pretty awesome, but in all seriousness, the cost savings only show themselves after long-term ownership.
The Colorado is also pretty awesome, especially the ZR2.
The Power Wagon checked the boxes for me because I didn't need to rush out and buy a lift and other things to start doing things offroad.
I went and ran Hells Revenge a month after buying it, BONE STOCK.
Matter of fact, my mods for the longest time here until recently were 35's, rock sliders and some diff protection. Oh and I bought a bumper. Whoopie do.
Fact being, I didn't spend any money on suspension until very recently when I decided to upgrade to King shocks and truss my axle becuase I was getting into more extreme stuff.
I have a friend with a 1500 who has close to 6k in just suspension to sit at the same height as my Power Wagon on 37's with stock suspension. That's saying something.
Where are you getting this info about the MPG's on the Power Wagon and not starting after, etc? Sounds like utter nonsense.No offense. I continuously hassle the dorks who get crap mileage on the FB group because it's clearly their driving. Got guys with 2017's on stock wheels getting 10mpg. And then you have some of us with 37's getting better mileage.
37's, towing I got 11.7mpg pulling an Airsteam from Boise to Moab recently. Also recently went over the CAT scales with the whole setup, talking 15860lbs total so...
Anyhow, don't bother with a 1/2 ton. Seriously, you'll be disappointed fast with the platform if you intend to do any serious trails. Solid axle with either coils or leafs out back will be a better platform to build. You already did the IFS thing, why do it again?
I already made this mistake of running a Ram 1500 for two years before switching to the Power Wagon. It's more than capable of being a tripple threat.
I can rock crawl extreme trails:
I can overland in style and comfort with a family of 5 and setup camp easily enough
I can use this truck, as a truck whenever I need to. Towing my Airstream, moving equipment, etc:
Disagree wholeheartedly.
I paid 14k more for my 2015 Ram Power Wagon vs my 2010 Ram 1500. That wasn't a huge difference in price.
Want to save, don't pay retail and don't buy a brand spanking new one.
Diesel is pretty awesome, but in all seriousness, the cost savings only show themselves after long-term ownership.
The Colorado is also pretty awesome, especially the ZR2.
The Power Wagon checked the boxes for me because I didn't need to rush out and buy a lift and other things to start doing things offroad.
I went and ran Hells Revenge a month after buying it, BONE STOCK.
Matter of fact, my mods for the longest time here until recently were 35's, rock sliders and some diff protection. Oh and I bought a bumper. Whoopie do.
Fact being, I didn't spend any money on suspension until very recently when I decided to upgrade to King shocks and truss my axle becuase I was getting into more extreme stuff.
I have a friend with a 1500 who has close to 6k in just suspension to sit at the same height as my Power Wagon on 37's with stock suspension. That's saying something.
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BoldAdventure
Adventurist
So I've done both. I have towed fulltime for a year with the 1500 and then another year with the 2500. I thought the whole "heavier truck stops better" was just some nonsense that 3/4 ton owners told themselves and posted on forums. I WAS WRONG.
The 1500 was rated to tow our Airstream just fine. And it did just fine, but the 2500 does it even better. It does actually stop better, it doesn't strain the same under load, goes up hills faster, and the temps don't climb.
I think the difference I observed is in the fact that one is light duty and the other is heavy duty. It's right there on the trucks the whole time.
How did you correct for odometer for the larger tires? Do you do new R&P gears, or a cog in the t-case or is it something electronic?
AEV Pro Cal solves all that
Cool, I was wondering. Uncorrected, all the mpg stuff is apples and oranges. My jeep came with 3.07 gears and 27" tires. Now on 35s, with 4.88 gears, I have no idea what the real mileage is.
BoldAdventure
Adventurist
Yeah, I have the ProCal, but I keep my receipts and hand calc anyways.
I get that driving style can play a role in mpg. Two different people driving the same spec vehicle can get quite a variance mpg's.
That said, I've driven the 6.4l hemi. I've also talked to others who have. And I've read more than a few long term reviews of it. The mpg is abysmal, even in stock form. I'm not knocking the PW, because the platform in all other aspects is rock solid, and quite frankly, the gasoline engine is pretty damn good despite its inefficiency. But I'll call a spade a spade....the 6.4L is a hog on fuel. And I'm by no means singling out the 6.4L Hemi for that issue...I've had the same experience with plenty of other gasoline v8's and even v6's in 4x4's.
I have nothing but admiration for the stock PW's capabilities; it's amazing that FCA is even willing to build such a purposeful offroader. But that $14k step up to the 3/4 ton segment, while it may not seem like a lot to you, is a lot to others. Plus, there is no denying that the bigger platforms will be more expensive to maintain, run and repair.
There is something to be said for the overbuilt and robust nature of 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, but you are definitely paying more to step into that segment. If someone truly wants to go with a 3/4 ton, that's totally fine. But they should be aware of everything that comes along with owning one of those trucks. The OP seemed concerned primarily with efficiency and range. He also only needs to tow a max of 6k lbs. If that's the case, I do think there are alternative platforms which will be better suited to him. That's all I'm saying....
BoldAdventure
Adventurist
Mhem, what's a fuel hog? Define that? I've had mostly v8's my entire adult life, I never had one that got over 20 mpg. Getting something like 10mpg or less is a fuel hog to me.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THAT, And if you are, then you need to re-evaluate some things. Like not towing at 80mph.
Now, let me clear the air on this topic, the 5.7 in the 2500 got really bad gas mileage.
I'm paying more? My oil changes cost about the same. My gear lube is the same. And I'm using Amsoil in everything.
I dunno what more I'm paying? Can you give examples? I mean maybe a diesel will cost more for sure, but I keep records and so far my 3/4 ton hasn't cost me more than the 1/2 ton.
Matter of fact, in terms of mods I have spent less at first. I dumped a bunch of money upfront on a lift, airbags, then replacement coils and stuff on the 1/2 ton.
The Power Wagon I invested way less upfront for the first two years of ownership.
Ok, let's clear up this mess here too. The 3/4 ton Ram and the 1/2 Ram, along with the Silverado/Serria all use the same cab on frame. So the interior space/size is about the same.
The difference for Ram here is that a 5.7 bed can be had in the 1/2 where with the 3/4 ton you get a 6.4 bed. There are a few 1/2 ton's with a 6.4 bed and crew cab. But they are rare.
So size wise, they are not that much bigger. Now Ford for the longest time had a different cab with the Super Duty. It's certainly bigger.
With the 3/4 ton on Ram & Ford you can get solid front axles, which will offer an advantage over IFS in terms of reliability and less breakage on trail.
If you are even considering a full-size, then why consider a mid-size? You already have a midsize correct? And it's not enough room?
I love the Colorado, but I've got a wife and 3 kids, we're not fitting comfortably in that thing on long road trips.
I recently squeezed us all into a Jeep. And I am pretty sure we are going to buy a Wrangler JL here soon. But I can't imagine us using it for any long trips.
I buy top trim levels, so others could probably pay less depending on trim. I know lots of guys who love tradesmen. The base trim is not for me.
"efficiency and range" are terms you should throw out with any truck. I don't even know Taco owners getting good mileage once they're modded either, especially the overweight ones. The guys here I wheel with are mostly Taco's and were surprised to see we're getting relatively the same MPG. Hell, my inline 6 in the trailblazer only got 15mpg once it was modified and it was once capable of 21mpg with very easy driving.
You don't buy a fullsize for those reasons, maybe you get a diesel, but then you get increased costs that don't return unless you plan for long term ownership.
You buy a fullsize for capability and hauling needs. My Airstream only weights 6890lbs. I could certainly tow it with something smaller.
But let's also consider, once I start modifying it, I'm going to be increasing weight, decreasing efficeny, etc.
Just seems like a silly proposition. Like asking to have your cake and eat it too. But from every category. Basically asking for a unicorn.
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BoldAdventure
Adventurist
I LIED, it is costing me more. 
Becuase I am wheeling harder than I could in the 1500 and now this happened >>>
Becuase I am wheeling harder than I could in the 1500 and now this happened >>>
jscusmcvet
Adventurist
Liar... 
Bold, your contributions to this topic are coming across as a bit defensive. Like I said earlier, I do think the Ram PW, and underlying 2500 platform, is one of the best 4x4 pickups you can get from the factory. But there is no question that it is going to cost more to buy and maintain/run compared to a midsized or even a 1/2 ton pickup. The OP stated very clearly that range and efficiency were among his top concerns. I don't think those concerns will be sufficiently addressed if he were to go with a PW.
It doesn't take much for the 6.4l to go below 10 mpg. And even during more "efficient" driving, 12-14mpg is about what I'd expect. By comparison, the diesels in that segment can get a bit better, which I don't even consider apples-to-apples as those engines produce comparable HP figures and far higher torque figures. Some of the turbo gasolines and even some of the v8's in the 1/2 ton segment can get in the high teens or even low 20's for mpg. In many respects, the 6.4l Hemi is a great, rock-solid engine, but there are definitely more efficient options out there for the OP's consideration.
Mods and cost of ownership (purchase, fuel and maintenance costs) are 2 different topics.
For basic cost of ownership, a 3/4 ton will cost more. You're spending more up front to purchase the vehicle. You're spending more on fuel (the 5.7l and the 3.0l ecodiesel 1500's both require less fuel to run compared to the 6.4l and the 6.7l Cummins 2500). From a brief review of an Mopar website, you'll find that some, though not all, Ram 2500 parts will cost more than comparable parts for the 1500 platform.
I'm really not preaching anything groundbreaking here, so I don't know why you took exception with that post.
I think you have your wires crossed here. I'm fairly certain that the Ram 1500 and 2500 have different cabs, whereas the Ford F-150 and SuperDuty have a shared cab. Can't speak for the GM stuff.
With that said, I do agree that the size difference between the average 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickup has become less and less pronounced in recent years. On paper, I realize there are differences in wheelbase, track width and overall length. But when you compare a Ram 1500 Crew Cab to 2500 Crew Cab parked next to each other, the 2500 doesn't seem all that much bigger by comparison.
You're replacing the OP's priorities with your own. The OP stated very clearly that he wants a 4x4 vehicle with good range and efficiency and can tow a max of 6k lbs. The Ram PW, and other 3/4 ton's, certainly satisfy that towing requirement but I'd argue that they fail to meet his efficiency requirement.
GM Colorado (diesel or gasoline variant). Tacoma. F-150 v6 ecoboost. Ram 1500 v8 or ecodiesel (though there are reliability concerns with the latter). Any one of those vehicles will offer better efficiency while accomplishing his towing goals. If the OP wants to buy a Ram PW, that's fine and he'll certainly have a very capable (arguably the most offroad-capable) 4x4 pickup at his disposal. But if he wants a vehicle that offers a better balance between utility and efficiency (something he has mentioned numerous times in his posts), then I think there are better options for him to consider.
It doesn't take much for the 6.4l to go below 10 mpg. And even during more "efficient" driving, 12-14mpg is about what I'd expect. By comparison, the diesels in that segment can get a bit better, which I don't even consider apples-to-apples as those engines produce comparable HP figures and far higher torque figures. Some of the turbo gasolines and even some of the v8's in the 1/2 ton segment can get in the high teens or even low 20's for mpg. In many respects, the 6.4l Hemi is a great, rock-solid engine, but there are definitely more efficient options out there for the OP's consideration.
Mods and cost of ownership (purchase, fuel and maintenance costs) are 2 different topics.
For basic cost of ownership, a 3/4 ton will cost more. You're spending more up front to purchase the vehicle. You're spending more on fuel (the 5.7l and the 3.0l ecodiesel 1500's both require less fuel to run compared to the 6.4l and the 6.7l Cummins 2500). From a brief review of an Mopar website, you'll find that some, though not all, Ram 2500 parts will cost more than comparable parts for the 1500 platform.
I'm really not preaching anything groundbreaking here, so I don't know why you took exception with that post.
I think you have your wires crossed here. I'm fairly certain that the Ram 1500 and 2500 have different cabs, whereas the Ford F-150 and SuperDuty have a shared cab. Can't speak for the GM stuff.
With that said, I do agree that the size difference between the average 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickup has become less and less pronounced in recent years. On paper, I realize there are differences in wheelbase, track width and overall length. But when you compare a Ram 1500 Crew Cab to 2500 Crew Cab parked next to each other, the 2500 doesn't seem all that much bigger by comparison.
You're replacing the OP's priorities with your own. The OP stated very clearly that he wants a 4x4 vehicle with good range and efficiency and can tow a max of 6k lbs. The Ram PW, and other 3/4 ton's, certainly satisfy that towing requirement but I'd argue that they fail to meet his efficiency requirement.
GM Colorado (diesel or gasoline variant). Tacoma. F-150 v6 ecoboost. Ram 1500 v8 or ecodiesel (though there are reliability concerns with the latter). Any one of those vehicles will offer better efficiency while accomplishing his towing goals. If the OP wants to buy a Ram PW, that's fine and he'll certainly have a very capable (arguably the most offroad-capable) 4x4 pickup at his disposal. But if he wants a vehicle that offers a better balance between utility and efficiency (something he has mentioned numerous times in his posts), then I think there are better options for him to consider.
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BoldAdventure
Adventurist
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't seem to be spending more on fuel, but what do I know? Apparently nothing.
I've owned both. They're the same. Like GM, they change out the front grille, fender, and hood for the different engines. Megacab, however, is only available on the 2500 since 2010. The older 3rd generation trucks, you could get a Mega Cab on the 1500. Supposedly, this is coming back with the 2019 models.
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Did I read this wrong? I have three kids now, I've had two for the last 4 years. I'm relating my experience to him in this post. Is this being defensive now?
He already owns a Tacoma and it's too small? The title says, UPGRADE TO FULL-SIZE. Am I conflating?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I was speaking from experience. And attempting to explain that maybe the efficiency thing isn't going to be found in a full-size of any size. Especially after you start modding it or trying to do stuff with it. Let's be realistic about our expectations and then re-evaluate. That's my suggestion. Based on MY personal experience using these platforms as overland/towing/crawling trucks.
Once you step up to these larger trucks, everything is a trade-off and a balancing act.
The range has never been an issue for me personally. Are people really traveling offroad further than 400 miles? Are people getting 500-600 miles in their overland Tacoma's offroad, in the states?
I'm not saying buy a PW.
I'm just saying, that I don't think the gap between 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton is not as huge as people think it is. I've spent a lot of time talking with friend Victor about his 1/2 ton build.
Again, just relating my experince with these platforms.
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Well that doesn't match up with my own experiences or the experiences of numerous other people who have posted their mpg results on fuelly and other places. Maybe you towed heavy a lot with both of your trucks so you didn't see much of difference. But, there is a difference between the mpg's of the average 1/2 ton and average 3/4 ton.
Okay, but you can still get a 1500 with a Regular Cab and/or Quad Cab right? Are those cab variants the same dimensions as what's offered for the 2500/3500?
Doesn't he already own a Tacoma and it's too small? The title says, UPGRADE TO FULL-SIZE.... opps I'm being defensive.
No, I was speaking from experience. I was attempting to explain that those requirements won't really be met in any full-size. Especially after you start modding it or trying to do stuff with it. Let's be realistic about our expectations and then re-evaluate. That's my suggestion. Based on MY personal experience using these platforms as overland/towing/crawling trucks.
I don't recall the OP stating that the Tacoma was too small. I think his main gripe with it was that he wasn't getting very good mpg's and power was less than stellar. He wants a rig that can tow a max of 6k lbs and he has repeatedly emphasized that he wants good efficiency and range. A full-sized would easily meet those requirements, certainly in stock form. Arguably, certain midsized trucks could meet those requirements too. I have no idea how much the OP wants to modify his truck, if at all.
My "defensive" comment was in reference to your refusal to acknowledge that there are any cost differences between the 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton segments. 3/4 tons cost more to buy, cost more to fuel and cost more to maintain. Those factors shouldn't preclude someone from getting into a 3/4 ton if they truly want or need one; but they should be aware of those factors when making their purchasing decision.
Just finished up or first big trip in the PW. We had it loaded up quite a bit and put a littel over 1k on and off road miles on her with an average of 11 to 14 mpg. After this trip it confirmed for us that we made the right choice in upgrading from the taco.
Stop derailing the thread Chris!
Good mix of the highs and lows of the 1/2 ton-3/4 ton opinions. I commend the posters for being civil with each other. Being in the car business, I can attest to completely different opinions about the same car on a daily basis.
Jut to add an opinion, unless you REALLY need a diesel, I would go gas engine on most any truck right now (from a diesel owner). Increased buy in cost, increase in maintenance costs, and generally the same or slightly higher fuel costs (at least in SoCal for a diesel. The adventure travel obsession with diesel engines baffles me. Not to mention, Cletus at the only garage for 100 miles in any direction might have the part for a gas engine, or at least something that will work, not as likely for a diesel engine.
Jut to add an opinion, unless you REALLY need a diesel, I would go gas engine on most any truck right now (from a diesel owner). Increased buy in cost, increase in maintenance costs, and generally the same or slightly higher fuel costs (at least in SoCal for a diesel. The adventure travel obsession with diesel engines baffles me. Not to mention, Cletus at the only garage for 100 miles in any direction might have the part for a gas engine, or at least something that will work, not as likely for a diesel engine.