Early stages of planning to cut a BFH in my van.

[Road]

.
Got the itch big-time lately--especially being stuck in one place so long during the Big Pause of '20-21--for expanding my van's potential as photography bunker and adventure unit.

I'm used to hauling my XV-2 trailer all over North America; setting it up for quick overnights as well as multi-week base camps. I have a growing desire, though, for efficient grab-and-run adventures with just van, whether my trailer is set up as base camp somewhere or parked in a yard.

Current van interior. Comfortable and flexible in arrangement.

It's an extended body cargo van with no pop top or side or rear windows. There's another couple feet the other side of that white half bulkhead, accessible from the side doors when the bed is set up as shown.
Twelve feet total of floor to play with from back of seat base to rear doors. 10'7" of roof from headliner to rear door frame.

It has served me admirably and comfortably for years, though I'd like to create more shooting options from inside the van, using it as a stand-up blind for shooting wildlife, for example. I'd like to increase my options for stand-up views, cooking, comfortable work station, and sleeping as well.

So...for most of the last year, stuck here pleasantly on the coast of Maine during the pan-frikkin-demic, I've been going out regularly to stand in the dooryard, even under moonlight on frozen nights. I wonder if neighbors think "WTHF is he doing, standing out there in the dark staring at his van night after night?" I imagine my options, figuring angles and minute details in my mind, determining what I am capable of on my own without spending mucho dineros on a prefab pop-top.

I know what I want as end product. It's just figuring how I want do it and of what materials. I've cut van roofs and installed high tops by myself before with success, so am familiar with the process.

The madness is starting to take form:

It always starts on napkins or envelopes.

I know SketchUp well, and have designed all sorts of things, from cabinetwork to buildings (below). Though with SketchUp's change in ownership, restriction of importing warehouse items and increase of Pro only features (at $299/yr), I became frustrated and resorted to paper, again, for initial sketches. Actually felt refreshing and forced a stretching of imagination; though the 3D and being able to rotate a design 360 in SketchUp would be sweet. I just haven't kept up with it. I may still import my drawings into the free version and see what I come up with. Or mess with Procreate on my iPad.

Agua Fria 2014
...

The construction method I am leaning towards most right now for a pop top is a plywood & epoxy fillet system as seen below (not mine), which is then coated with epoxy resin, then painted. Strong, lightweight, durable, and low cost. If I had a shop and a good amount of space in which to work, I might lean more towards making a mold and laying up fiberglass. Then I could make more for others. The more I research the plywood and epoxy fillet method, though, the more I like it.

I'm excited about the possibilities and anxious to get working on it once it warms up enough outside. Was 14ºF here yesterday.

Late night ramblings from an old explorer who's itchy to get wandering again.


..

 

[richard310]

Ply can be heavy, even when using thin sheets, especially when coated/soaked in resin. Having it somewhat partially exposed to the elements too (even if soaked in resin could still expose the wood during finishing process), there are a lot of environmental factors than may lead to warpage and inconsistent surfacing with ply. Personally, I'd highly recommend building and finishing a master pattern with your finalized design first, and then creating a FG tool for a FG part. Having a one-piece FG topper is a heck of a lot stronger and lighter than a multipiece plywood construction. Even if only done once, it'd be done right.

 

[Steve & Deb]

You're familiar enough with wooden boat building to either stitch very thin marine ply and laminate both side with glass (or kevlar) and resin, or, strip cedar and glass and resin. While you're outside looking at the van, take a look at the canoe, too, for ideas. it would be vastly less weight than plywood and glass. A couple of forms would be a lot simpler to build than a FRP mold.

Or, just chop the floor out of your hardshell and Bondo it into the van roof!

 

[Dave]

 

[Dave]

@Chris Griggers

 

[Herbie]

So I went down a similar rabbit hole about 11 years ago. I bought a van, I talked to a buddy who was in the molded-composites business and we CAD'd up some ideas for a pop-top roof. Went so far as to yank the headliner and make some templates to get really accurate data.

Then I hit on the idea of grafting a hard-shell RTT to the roof...

(I even went so far as to order a Maggiolina)

But in the end, I found a very-high-mileage donor van that had a working pop-top and just transplanted that onto my van:

And EVEN WITH having basically a "ready made" roof "kit" with all the goodies (hinges, tent, reinforcements, etc.) - I still spent HUNDREDS of hours working on various parts of that transplant.
I don't want to discourage anyone from heading down a path like this, but I want to be sure you go in eyes-open. I was more than a little surprised by the amount of time it took me to get that project to a usable state. I almost quit multiple times, but once you cut the roof off your van, you're sort of committed! You'll probably be going through many of the same things I went through plus you're considering fabbing your own top. If you could find a top from a Sportsmobile/GTRV/Pleasure-Way, or do what Colorado Campervan did in the early days and harvest a medium-height bubble top from a junkyard van, you'd probably save yourself a TON of time. (Or keep going with the hardshell RTT idea, that's been done more than a couple of times.)

Hope this is useful and not merely discouraging!

 

[Road]

Ha - I figured this would get some interesting opinions, and that the responses would reflect a wide range of experience and personal preferences.

Ply can be heavy, even when using thin sheets, especially when coated/soaked in resin. Having it somewhat partially exposed to the elements too (even if soaked in resin could still expose the wood during finishing process), there are a lot of environmental factors than may lead to warpage and inconsistent surfacing with ply. Personally, I'd highly recommend building and finishing a master pattern with your finalized design first, and then creating a FG tool for a FG part. Having a one-piece FG topper is a heck of a lot stronger and lighter than a multipiece plywood construction. Even if only done once, it'd be done right.

Thanks, Richard, I appreciate your concern and suggestions.

I've explored all sorts of options, including making plugs, molds, laying glass, using a carbon/kevlar matrix like my canoe, or making it all aluminum. I'm looking at everything and will experiment with those that appeal to me most. I have a long history and background of working with all kinds of materials.

I have to say, though, I've been quite impressed with the couple RTT's I've seen made of ply and epoxy fillet. Much lighter and much stronger than I thought they would be. Both were easily handled by one person, from installation to operation. The older of the two had been moved regularly from one vehicle to another and back and exposed to weather every night for a year, and still looked new and worked great.

You're familiar enough with wooden boat building to either stitch very thin marine ply and laminate both side with glass (or kevlar) and resin, or, strip cedar and glass and resin. While you're outside looking at the van, take a look at the canoe, too, for ideas. it would be vastly less weight than plywood and glass. A couple of forms would be a lot simpler to build than a FRP mold.

Or, just chop the floor out of your hardshell and Bondo it into the van roof!

Heh, Mr. Steve, no moving or chopping the bottom out of my hardshell, though I've seen just that done on other vehicles. Doesn't really appeal to me, visually, nor would it be as convenient for sleeping up top as a longer top would be, in that you'd have to cover up the whole opening with your bed boards. Not real convenient for climbing down in the middle of the night. My hard shell is sturdy and stabile as hell, though, even in the desert windstorms I've experienced.

Believe me, I've studied my Hornbeck Nomad a ton, with it's slick Carbon/Kevlar matrix. Fourteen feet long and weighs only 26lbs. I can lift it with one hand, as you know. Makes getting in the water a dream and I do it a lot more often because of it. Visiting their shop in the Adirondacks, talking to them about how they lay up their canoes, and meeting Peter Hornbeck himself was a treat, as well as very educating in how these boats come together. As I mentioned above, I've thought of making my top of Carbon/Kevlar and have priced what amount I'd need should I decide to go that route.

The ply and epoxy fillet is very much the same as stitching ply and laminating.

All great fun to figure and plan.

So I went down a similar rabbit hole about 11 years ago.

And EVEN WITH having basically a "ready made" roof "kit" with all the goodies (hinges, tent, reinforcements, etc.) - I still spent HUNDREDS of hours working on various parts of that transplant.
I don't want to discourage anyone from heading down a path like this, but I want to be sure you go in eyes-open. I was more than a little surprised by the amount of time it took me to get that project to a usable state. I almost quit multiple times, but once you cut the roof off your van, you're sort of committed! You'll probably be going through many of the same things I went through plus you're considering fabbing your own top. If you could find a top from a Sportsmobile/GTRV/Pleasure-Way, or do what Colorado Campervan did in the early days and harvest a medium-height bubble top from a junkyard van, you'd probably save yourself a TON of time. (Or keep going with the hardshell RTT idea, that's been done more than a couple of times.)

Hope this is useful and not merely discouraging!

Not discouraging at all, Herbie, and I appreciate your concern, too.

As I wrote in my post, I have cut van roofs and installed high tops before. My first was twenty years ago on an extended body Ford van of my own. This ain't my first rodeo. I'm well aware of the process, time involved, and potential complications. I don't think of it as a rabbit hole at all. So, yes, eyes are open, and they're experienced.

I've checked out a ton of high top and pop top vendors, examined and measured both Road-Trek and Pleasure Way tops years ago, searched junkyards for Sportsmobile or Westy donors (the high top I put on the Ford was from a donor van) and been out to Colorado Campervan, too, to see their operation firsthand.

I'd LOVE to find a Westfalia top, as they fit quite nicely on GM vans. That's a Westy top on the short wheelbase GMC Savana below. Been looking for one for ages, and know just how I would modify it.

...

To be honest, everyone, I'm not at all intimidated by cutting a BFH in my van, making a top from scratch if need be, and installing it myself. I'm looking forward to it, from design, to building whichever way I decide, to sewing the tent sides and zippered windows myself. I've got a couple heavy duty machines and will be making more sidewalls for my trailer awning, too, to better enclose it in different ways for cold weather camping.

 

[Dave]

Sounds like you have a very good grasp of the details here. Van conversions are in Vogue right now (always?) but 90% of the people doing it don’t have your resume.

This is gonna be fascinating to see what direction you go.

 

[Road]

Thanks, man. I appreciate your confidence. I'll sit and have some of that popcorn with you now.

 

[richard310]

Well, we'll be here drinking beers and eating popcorn watching you work and criticize from afar

 

[WashingtonTaco]

Interesting ideas. I thought about fiberglass drawers at one time for my Taco and quickly realized I was over my head. But found this company local to me, maybe a resource to you?

http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/

 

[Road]

Well, we'll be here drinking beers and eating popcorn watching you work and criticize from afar

I'm sure there will be plenty to critique and comment on, Richard! I appreciate all criticism and suggestions; they can stretch a project in ways I may not have imagined and often bring up things I hadn't considered properly yet.

Interesting ideas. I thought about fiberglass drawers at one time for my Taco and quickly realized I was over my head. But found this company local to me, maybe a resource to you?

http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/

Hey, thanks! I have a growing list of suppliers for all sorts of stuff going back years, and will add them, too. Pays to shop around. I've seen quarts of Interlux vary in price as much as 50% and shipping range from free to $12 for just a quart.

Being here on the Maine coast, too, with it's rich boat-building heritage, offers a wealth of local vendors for both wood and fiberglass supplies as well as a wide variety of expertise and experience from which to draw.

There is SO much pioneered by the marine industry that can be used in land-based adventure, from 12v systems to durable finishes.

 

[jscusmcvet]

I have built a few plywood/epoxy skiffs as well. Nothing as elegant as your canoe it sounds like. A couple sailing skiffs and a couple power skiffs.
Sticking with a light fiberglass weave or even another fabric like dynel might save some weight. Primary goal of the glass on a plywood boat is for abrasion resistance and to reinforce epoxy and/or mechanical joints and such. It is the penetration and sealing of the epoxy that makes it water proof. With today's epoxies, you probably don't need it for the joints, as much as a good fillet. As for the abrasion resistance, that is up to you considering tree branches and the like, I would guess.
That being said, I will say that on my first boat I strove to go as light as possible. from there it was a steady progression to sacrificing weight in order to seek strength and durability. Strictly personal preference.
Interested to watch this develop.

 

[Road]

I have built a few plywood/epoxy skiffs as well. Nothing as elegant as your canoe it sounds like. A couple sailing skiffs and a couple power skiffs.
Sticking with a light fiberglass weave or even another fabric like dynel might save some weight. Primary goal of the glass on a plywood boat is for abrasion resistance and to reinforce epoxy and/or mechanical joints and such. It is the penetration and sealing of the epoxy that makes it water proof. With today's epoxies, you probably don't need it for the joints, as much as a good fillet. As for the abrasion resistance, that is up to you considering tree branches and the like, I would guess.
That being said, I will say that on my first boat I strove to go as light as possible. from there it was a steady progression to sacrificing weight in order to seek strength and durability. Strictly personal preference.
Interested to watch this develop.

.
I appreciate your feedback and experience.

If I decide to go with ply and fillets, I'm going to experiment with bulkhead placements, sidewall depth, and load capacities, etc. to see how much weight it can take. I'll most likely embed 4" bias cloth over the fillets, and maybe use peel ply inside on any joints that will remain visible, and use bias cloth on any outside leading corners too, for just the reason you mention; tree branches. But not everywhere; like you said, it's really impressive what today's epoxies can do.

I'm much more of a desert rat than mountain goat anyway, so don't typically have problems with branches. The sides of my van, though, get desert pinstriped to beat the band. It's one reason I'm willing to go up in height. When I'm in the mountains of east Tennessee or down southern Louisiana, it's usually gravel travel and not too tight.

It's a work truck, after all, not a show piece, and she's gonna get dinged and scratched and bruised from time to time.

Would love to see the craft you've built!

 

[Greg]

For the plywood & epoxy fillet system you could sub out the plywood with marine grade plastic. You work it just like wood. Router the edges, etc. It won't degrade like plywood when exposed to water and it's lighter.

Cost-wise though I can't tell you for what you want to do. I only used it for the rear deck in the cabin of my Tacoma. A table saw to cut the filler plates and the access panels from a quarter inch sheet. A step drill bit was used for the finger holes in the access panels. Fine sandpaper to smooth the edges

https://www.boatoutfitters.com/material/plastic-sheet

https://www.kingplastic.com/products/king-starboard/

 

[jscusmcvet]

.
Would love to see the craft you've built!

You can check out our latest here. It isn't as nicely built as some but it is water tight and sails well. https://americanadventurist.com/forum/threads/the-triple-j.7417/

Best of luck on your project. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

 

[Road]

For the plywood & epoxy fillet system you could sub out the plywood with marine grade plastic. You work it just like wood. Router the edges, etc. It won't degrade like plywood when exposed to water and it's lighter.

Cost-wise though I can't tell you for what you want to do. I only used it for the rear deck in the cabin of my Tacoma. A table saw to cut the filler plates and the access panels from a quarter inch sheet. A step drill bit was used for the finger holes in the access panels. Fine sandpaper to smooth the edges

https://www.boatoutfitters.com/material/plastic-sheet

https://www.kingplastic.com/products/king-starboard/

Very cool. Thanks for the links. I hadn't considered plastic polymers, but can see the potential. I'll look into thicknesses and how they do over spans and how often it needs support, especially in desert climates. From the Boat Outfitters page on limitations of polymer sheets: "For example - If you lean a piece of Starboard against the wall in your hot garage, you will return the next day and it very likely would have started to flex a bit."

I know I'd sure like to play with it. I like it for some door panels/tables stuff, too, that may see weather.

Much appreciated!

 

[Road]

You can check out our latest here. It isn't as nicely built as some but it is water tight and sails well. https://americanadventurist.com/forum/threads/the-triple-j.7417/

Best of luck on your project. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

.

Just left word under your cool boat projects thread and images. So cool.

I'm getting a real kick out of seeing Dynamite Payson and Phil Bolger's names in your post and that article in Wooden Boat. Never met Bolger I don't think--he was down in Gloucester. Though Dynamite was a big deal around the midcoast to those in the wooden boat world or who worked in lumber or hardware, where I first met him.

At one point, I had all the silicon bronze and galvanized screws from an old multi-story hardware store that went by the way--scooped it all up, along with all sorts of stuff like whole racks of balsa for building models--for .10 on the dollar and less. Boxes and milk crates full of stuff that felt like gold to me. Word got around I had it, so I met just all sorts of boat builders and tradesmen and decoy makers and eagle carvers, etc. All wonderful characters.

I'd answer the phone to "Heya, ya got any three and a quartah bronze wood screws over there, do ya? Oval head if ya got 'em."

One of them said to me once "Well ain't you a clevah fellah, making such a deal on all this hahdware and gettin' to meet all of Maine's finest. Makin' em come to you, to boot!" Some would come by when in town from down on the peninsulas because they knew they could use my bathroom and get a cup of coffee and some kitchen table time.

I haven't thought about those times in years.

 

[jscusmcvet]

.

Just left word under your cool boat projects thread and images. So cool.

I'm getting a real kick out of seeing Dynamite Payson and Phil Bolger's names in your post and that article in Wooden Boat. Never met Bolger I don't think--he was down in Gloucester. Though Dynamite was a big deal around the midcoast to those in the wooden boat world or who worked in lumber or hardware, where I first met him.

At one point, I had all the silicon bronze and galvanized screws from an old multi-story hardware store that went by the way--scooped it all up, along with all sorts of stuff like whole racks of balsa for building models--for .10 on the dollar and less. Boxes and milk crates full of stuff that felt like gold to me. Word got around I had it, so I met just all sorts of boat builders and tradesmen and decoy makers and eagle carvers, etc. All wonderful characters.

I'd answer the phone to "Heya, ya got any three and a quartah bronze wood screws over there, do ya? Oval head if ya got 'em."

One of them said to me once "Well ain't you a clevah fellah, making such a deal on all this hahdware and gettin' to meet all of Maine's finest. Makin' em come to you, to boot!" Some would come by when in town from down on the peninsulas because they knew they could use my bathroom and get a cup of coffee and some kitchen table time.

I haven't thought about those times in years.

I could only hope to have a 10th of the skill of those guys you dealt with. Something special about a product made by hand that at once is a rugged work oriented item and an actual work of art. Sorry if this derailed your thread, but there are or could be so many similarities between boats building and your current project. Very interesting.

 

[Road]

I could only hope to have a 10th of the skill of those guys you dealt with. Something special about a product made by hand that at once is a rugged work oriented item and an actual work of art. Sorry if this derailed your thread, but there are or could be so many similarities between boats building and your current project. Very interesting.

.
Ha, no, not a derailing at all. All part and parcel of figuring out what I want to do and how I want to do it. And I agree, the satisfaction of creating something both functional and pleasing to look at is the ultimate. So much of the things I enjoy learning about have cross applications.